Comments on Bringing the Technofunk: My Annoyances with CodeGear RAD

Hi, The Darwin Race of Languages site is published...

2008-06-30T16:33:00.000-07:00

Hi, The Darwin Race of Languages site is published. You of all people are much invited to participate in the challenge. You will get super bonus points and long live respect from the Delphi community if you submit an entry in Delphi. There is a link to this posting as it started this all :-)

http://www.darwinraceoflanguages.com

Bye,
Bart

"D6 is for sure a memory hog also when compared to...

2008-06-29T06:01:00.000-07:00

"D6 is for sure a memory hog also when compared to VB6."

Not true at all. Feel free to repeat it to convince yourself, but whoever used Delphi 6 knows it's not true.

"This is great way of protecting Delphi's short comings.
If we are running a program in the IDE then it is the responsibility of the IDE to release the programs memory when the program terminates"

You are too much used to GCed languages. The IDE can call the GC and release memory. The IDE *can't do nothing* with native compiled languages. The OS should release the memory when a process terminates - and usually do so, but bad written applications can hinder it.
That's why professional developers use profilers and the like. But a profiler to track each allocation introduces a delay, and it's not something you use everytime. Learning to code properly is a much faster way - together with a final profiler check.

"I think you need to check Visual Studio 2003 or higher for"

Are you talking about .NET or C++? Because again, if a C++ programs badly leaks the IDE can't do nothing.

Keep on working in your sandboxes, baby, let serious programming to those who are able to perform it.

"should be setting which will make a newcomer more comfortable with the IDE"

There are those settings. Of course because newcomers are a small percentage of users, those settings are not the defaults.

"Anyways these are my views."

Of course.

@LDSI am not comparing Old VB6 memory requirements...

2008-06-29T00:45:00.000-07:00

@LDS

I am not comparing Old VB6 memory requirements to Delphi 2006 but I am comparing to Delphi 6 and D6 is for sure a memory hog also when compared to VB6.

You said :
"Probably people coming from VB just introduced lots of leaks because they were unable to handle memory allocation correctly. It's not an IDE task to track application memory allocations and free what a lame programmer left behinds - in languages like Delphi (and C/C++) it's a programmer task. The OS should release memory when a process terminates - but if the programmer is lame enough, memory can be lost until a reboot. If you can't handle that taks, choose a GCed language or interpreted language."

This is great way of protecting Delphi's short comings.
If we are running a program in the IDE then it is the responsibility of the IDE to release the programs memory when the program terminates.

I think you need to check Visual Studio 2003 or higher for a better understanding as to what should be the responsibility of the IDE. ;)

Changing of short cut keys is not a big deal but I think you missed my point here! What I am trying to say is that there should be setting which will make a newcomer more comfortable with the IDE rather than scare him/her. I have mapper the keys to my requirements but than happened after almost one month of using the Delphi IDE.

If I were working in CG I would have taken care to implement a small wizard which will run when the IDE is run for the first time and then ask user a few questions and setup the work environment accordingly.

Anyways these are my views.

@YogiyanYou pay for a modern IDE that still offers...

2008-06-28T09:01:00.000-07:00

@Yogiyan

You pay for a modern IDE that still offers the shortcuts it users are used to. They are no longer WordStar shorcuts. Now they are the Delphi shortcuts long time Delphi users are used to. You can change them, so why you still complain? Just because you weren't able to open the Options dialog and change them?

Find another application that is still alive after 25 years. The old VB died because its technology was flawed. MS had to hire the man who created TurboPascal and Delphi to build C# and .NET - think about it...

I am using Delphi since version 1 and never had memory problems. It always run on the average hardware of the time - my PII had 128MB of RAM - and Delphi 5 and 6 run smoothly on it.

Also you can compare VB and Delphi but you can't compare older VB6 memory footprint with newer Delphi 2006 footprint. Or should I say that Vista is a memory hog compared to Redhat 7? And Office 2007 is a memory whale compared to WordStar? :-D

Probably people coming from VB just introduced lots of leaks because they were unable to handle memory allocation correctly. It's not an IDE task to track application memory allocations and free what a lame programmer left behinds - in languages like Delphi (and C/C++) it's a programmer task. The OS should release memory when a process terminates - but if the programmer is lame enough, memory can be lost until a reboot. If you can't handle that taks, choose a GCed language or interpreted language.

Delphi 2006 can be made to run without .NET, but many features (es. refactoring) are unluckily .NET based. If you can't afford a decent developing machine, it's not a product fault.

Accept the fact.

And listen to me, change your forums - looks to be thw wrong ones.

@LDS"Again, you are wrong - and don't know where t...

2008-06-27T22:23:00.000-07:00

@LDS
"Again, you are wrong - and don't know where they come from. TurboPascal used Wordstar-like shortcuts, and because user got used to them the default shortcuts are still the same. Long time TurboPascal/Delphi users feels at home with them. You can easily change them - look in Options/Editor."
I know where they come from and they are not ready to leave the grand old and now useless DOS world. Once upon a time WordStar ruled the word processing market so at that time the shortcut keys were valid but not now. Now MS Word rules the word processing market so you have to give functionality at per that by all means.

Damit! I paid for Delphi 2006 for all that AGE OLD bulshit shortcut keys and user interface.

"I agree that D2006 IDE requires a lot of memory. It became so when they choose to integrate .NET (previous versions have not that issue), and due some issue resolved in D2007."

I have found a version of Delphi 2006 named Delphi 10 Lite on a Chinese site (only if I would have found it before I purchased D2006!) which works without the requirement of .NET so don't tell me that D2006 is bulky because of integration of .NET. I can't take that shit...

I have tried this version of Delphi Lite on Windows 2000 Professional without any service patches and the surprising thing is that it worked without .NET run time or SDK!

"A comparison with VB6 is unfair, because that was software designed for far less powerful machines (1GB is little memory today)"

I don't know why you say that it is unfair to compare VB6 and Delphi.

But don't tell me that VB6 was designed for very less memory machines. I have read a lot of complains of Delphi's high memory requirements in various news groups and forums, since the age of Delphi 3. So the fact is that Delphi's IDE is a Memory HOG since version 3.

Accept the facts!

"Your issue with D6 was peculiar to you, because I used D6 for large apps on PII 400 with less memory. Probably your app was leaking a lot of memory itself."

What was the memory of the PII PC that you had used?

As for Memory Leaks it is the job and responsibility of the IDE to take care of releasing unwanted memory fragments left over by a software running in the IDE. This is a lame excuse!

To branden: In my opinion, most of them talk about...

2008-06-27T10:13:00.000-07:00

To branden: In my opinion, most of them talk about something they really don't know or, at least, didn't take enough time to test it.

Delphi is and have been a great development tool for years. I can't talk for the USA's or EEUU's market, but here, in Brazil, the Delphi market is large.

About my own experience: I develop two huge softwares for my company. One is Win32 and the other is .Net. For Win32 I use Delphi, for .Net, VS2008. I'm happy, my around-2000 customers are happy, my partners are happy.

To be pretty sincere, there's nothing til this day I should do in my softwares that I couldn't. All features I imagined till this very day, I could develop into them.

That's why I still think you've taken silly points and said the whole thing is bad. I still think you're wrong.

to Rodrigo: why do you think people put Delphi dow...

2008-06-27T08:00:00.000-07:00

to Rodrigo: why do you think people put Delphi down?

"I also would like to add that almost all shortcut...

2008-06-27T07:07:00.000-07:00

"I also would like to add that almost all shortcut keys are non intuitive."

Again, you are wrong - and don't know where they come from. TurboPascal used Wordstar-like shortcuts, and because user got used to them the default shortcuts are still the same. Long time TurboPascal/Delphi users feels at home with them. You can easily change them - look in Options/Editor.

I agree that D2006 IDE requires a lot of memory. It became so when they choose to integrate .NET (previous versions have not that issue), and due some issue resolved in D2007.

A comparison with VB6 is unfair, because that was software designed for far less powerful machines (1GB is little memory today)

Your issue with D6 was peculiar to you, because I used D6 for large apps on PII 400 with less memory. Probably your app was leaking a lot of memory itself.

I also would like to add that almost all shortcut ...

2008-06-27T06:14:00.000-07:00

I also would like to add that almost all shortcut keys are non intuitive.

After using Delphi 2006 for more than 2 years now I can say that the IDE is a real memory HOG. In fact all the IDEs till date are memory HOGs.

I have used Delphi 6 Personal Edition on a P IV 1.7 GHz with 256 MB RAM and after compiling a small software with 6 forms for a few times, I get the message from Windows that it will have to swap memory to swap file and the system will be slow to respond.

I finally had to update my PC memory to 1 GB.

As far as I am concerned this is terrible.

This has never happened with VB 6's DIE till date. I have a very large software with 96 Forms loaded with anything from 10 controls to 40 controls on them. The project also uses 14 different ActiveXs.

I think creating a project with this many forms and controls in Delphi will bog down my PC in spite of 1 GB RAM.

But the fact is that I am still using Delphi on day to day basis for maintaining an old software and for developing small apps that are not very large and easy to manage & develop.

At the end of the day I feel that Delphi is usable in spite of all these limitations.

But another fact is that even after 2 years of using Delphi I still do not use it for serious APPS as I am never able to be productive with it instantly.

There is also severe lack of information for developers transiting from VB to Delphi and the material (manuals, ref. guides, etc.) provided by Borland are totally un-usable. It seems that it is formatted and created for Pascal language programmers Only!

Here where I live, in Brazil, there are a lot of p...

2008-06-27T05:59:00.000-07:00

Here where I live, in Brazil, there are a lot of people that act (react?) like this guy, saying false things or trying to put this great tool, which I use since version 1, down.

I tell you what: bullshit. And I write, instead of this guy, from experience. More than 10 years of Delphi, more than 5 years of VS. Both are great, both have problems... Anyway, I bet anyone show me 1 software that doesn't.

I'll keep using them for building my softwares. Even "full" of "big-oh-my-god-huge" problems, they still pay my bills...

"Actually a compiler is supposed to show a whole l...

2008-06-27T04:09:00.000-07:00

"Actually a compiler is supposed to show a whole list of all the errors"

C/C++ compiler are supposed to do so. Java and C# maybe. Not Delphi.

The Delphi compiler is much faster because it doesn't make multiple passes - but it stops if the error it encounters does not allow to continue (and skips showing a lot of useless errors just depending on the first one).

You have to understand that Delphi is a tool with an old lineage, having its roots in 1983 TurboPascal. It works in a different way than a C compiler and its derivates (Java, C#, etc.).
It was never designed to mimic C-like languages and tools. It has its own standards and behaviours. You may like them or not, but it works like it supposed to do. If you expect it to work like VS or a C compiler, well, you won't be able to use it.

I agree with you as far as Code Editor is concerne...

2008-06-27T03:42:00.000-07:00

I agree with you as far as Code Editor is concerned. I just do not like this behavior at all. The cursor (insertion point) navigation is also a pain in the neck.

Next I also started hating the compiler of Delphi 2006. Actually a compiler is suppose to show a whole list of all the errors when we try to compile but I have noticed that Delphi does not show all the compiler errors when certain kind of errors are there in code. Once we rectify that error we get the next error which is generally on the following code line. Isn't that really baffling?

C'mon fellow Delphi enthusiasts, let's stop the Br...

2008-06-26T11:24:00.000-07:00

C'mon fellow Delphi enthusiasts, let's stop the Branden bashing!! Instead of turning him against Delphi, let's invite him to join us and help SHOW him why we like Delphi.

Branden Tanga wrote (on Marco Cantu's blog):
> While I now understand that some of my post isn't true (from reading
the comments), I stand by my assertion that Delphi is annoying.
However, I will at least attempt to learn otherwise.

Branden, I have a humble request. Please evaluate Delphi for 1 month. Install the open-source (and high quality) JCL and JVCL components. Follow Nick Hodge's "30 demos in 30 days" and then post a follow-up review: http://blogs.codegear.com/nickhodges/index.php?p=26687

The 30 demos in 30 days will acclimate you to the Object-Pascal language and the Delphi IDE much more quickly than experimenting on your own. I know it helped me a great deal.

I know there are some that are bashing your post, but I think that if you did a bit more research, you'd be able to provide a more insightful review. Delphi is not perfect, but I believe it is the most productive RAD tool on the market today.

Either way, I'd love to hear your review after 30 days of use (and after going through the 30 demos in 30 days).

If I only had a blog, I could write about how terr...

2008-06-26T11:18:00.000-07:00

If I only had a blog, I could write about how terrible Visual Studio is, even when I've never used it. I happen to grab an installation CD about four or five years ago: that should be enough to create an opinion.

This confirms a definition of critic I read somewhere: A critic is a lame guy teaching to run.

But hey, keep the work: There's never enough spam in the Internet.

Branden,You have a valid point about not knowing h...

2008-06-26T10:55:00.000-07:00

Branden,

You have a valid point about not knowing how to indent text. The help system broke when they switch help compiled. I addressed all of your points on my own blog, but I'm pretty sure you seen the same responses from a whole bunch of people.

jajaja... it's funny. Seems that all the people t...

2008-06-26T03:37:00.000-07:00

jajaja... it's funny. Seems that all the people that reads your blog disagree with what you write.

My advice: Next time, be serious and do some research before posting things like this lies you're writing.

Nice day!

You remind me of myself trying out MSVS for the fi...

2008-06-26T01:39:00.000-07:00

You remind me of myself trying out MSVS for the first time: "It doesn't work the way I am used to - I hate it!". Needless to say, if you move from Mercedes to BMW (or vise versa) - there are differences. We all need to learn our new tool before we can pass judgement on it. The most important thing is to remain openminded and don't let petty annoyance overshadow our ability to explore and learn. RAD Studio is not MSVS, and most Delphi users enjoy that bit.

1. Tab replacing selected text is consistant with most pure text editors (notepad, textpad, etc) and has been the standard for the Delphi IDE for years. If you are not happy about that, please go: Tools|Options, Editor Options, Key Mappings - and select Visual Studio(TM) emulation.

2. Never seen that undocked window bug, but it does sound annoying. But - multiple layouts can be saved - and hence restored easily.

3. As so many others have written - Ctrl-F2 halts the running app, but you might check out the Run|Program Pause menu entry, which will break the application in debugging mode, allowing you to find out where you are stuck.

Applications running can be halted externally, but it is not recommended.

4. MSVS and Widgets. I don't use MSVS on a regular basis, so I might be wrong here - but doesn't that also come with only the native MFC windows widget wrappers? (assuming we talk about Win32 development). If you want something like the new Office toolbar, you still have to buy that from an ISV, right? JCL/JVCL has been mentioned. Try http://www.torry.ru/ for more free, shareware or commercial components than most of us can consume.

How are the DB aware components in MSVS? Are there any?

5. Free vs commercial... The Pro version of Delphi isn't really expensive, but I agree - it would not be bad if there was a Turbo RAD version to replace the older free versions from CodeGear.

6. I think you have already been set straight on that. Delphi has always come with source code for the entire class library.

Oh maayyy..!!! ;-))))It is quite clear as other co...

2008-06-26T01:34:00.000-07:00

Oh maayyy..!!! ;-))))

It is quite clear as other comments had stated before that you even have a clue about the Delphi IDE.. but so far so good, no problems. It is quite normal that when you start using a new program everythink annoys. Let me tell you something.. please,please,please be patient. Read carefully what other commentors said for the points that you stated and give Delphi a chance... When you get stuck... make a coffee and press F1 or google for it... as time passes you will realize that you have the best IDE at your fingertips, believe me.. it is true...
May the force be with you... use the source Luke ;-)

In the past 15 years, I have used dBase/Clipper, V...

2008-06-26T00:42:00.000-07:00

In the past 15 years, I have used dBase/Clipper, Visual Basic, Delphi, Visual Studio, Eclipse-based, among others (only naming those I HAVE REALLY built systems on).

So far, I find Delphi the most productive. Of course, no product is bug free; remember BDS 2005?

Many people like to advocate this IDE over that IDE based on the strength of 'this' over the weakness of 'that'. As long as you are comfortable using the IDE, provides a good degree of productivity, and produces a fast, reliable application, it is the IDE for you. It's like the recent debate over the floating and VS-like Delphi IDE.

Coke or Pepsi challenge, anyone?

At the end of the day, there will always be people that would have some bias against/for something, it's the way of the world. I just wish that they would at least taste Coke AND Pepsi for a few weeks before commenting.

"I am a professional software developer with particular interests in being productive and building profitable systems"

Hey, Branden, I think you must be grateful to Marc...

2008-06-26T00:31:00.000-07:00

Hey, Branden, I think you must be grateful to Marco Cantu - he is the reason for that somebody visits your blog ;)

If these are the only annoyances that you have fou...

2008-06-26T00:20:00.000-07:00

If these are the only annoyances that you have found then Delphi must be a great product! These just sound as very tint annoyances found by someone who did his ultimate best to find something to complain about.

About paying for Delphi widgets, there are actually more FREE components and sources for Delphi than for Visual Studio or most other development tools. Many of them are also of a very good quality. If you're looking for components, search for the JEDI VCL, which is free. Want some extra IDE plugins? Use GExperts, also free. These two are the most popular but there are plenty more.

About the WYSIWYG editor that you complain about in your last point, you're completely wrong about that. Actually, one of the functions of the GExperts wizard is a simple wizard that will convert a form to pure Delphi code. That will allow you to design a form quickly, convert it and then work without the WYSIWYG editor.

I have worked with many development systems and your advise about "not using BDS" is completely ridiculous. There's almost 14 years of user experience in this product compared to about 6 or 7 years in VS. BDS is just well-matured.

Greetings,
Workshop Alex.

Dedicated and motivated software developer?! If yo...

2008-06-25T20:44:00.000-07:00

Dedicated and motivated software developer?! If you fiund the IDE way too hard to master, please... please RTFM.

Please read the marco cantu blog and use it a litt...

2008-06-25T18:20:00.000-07:00

Please read the marco cantu blog and use it a little more. Anybody can see from miles you dont use it more than a few hours...

Best regards.

Whoa!! you missed a LOT!* When you select ...You c...

2008-06-25T18:11:00.000-07:00

Whoa!! you missed a LOT!

* When you select ...
You can change this behavior by going to Tools | Options | Editor Options and deselecting Overwrite Blocks.

* Weird bug ...
Never seen this happen.

* If you launch your ...
No need to use task manager. Delphi debugger is minimize. Click on it to bring it up and set up a break point to see where this infinite loop is occurring or why. You can also shut down the errant application by pressing the program reset button within Delphi or pressing its hot key. This is a good thing.

* You have to pay 3rd parties...
Only if you want to. The tool palette is full of components that can be used. In addition to commercial components there is robust supply of free components available too. The tool palette is robust enough that even Developers Express cut back on what they are willing to do because they don't want to compete with what's included. The windows API is also available from within Delphi.

* There is no free...
There are turbos available still but a free version of RAD Studio hasn't been made available. Maybe the new owner of CodeGear will do something here.???

* You can only write Delphi...
You may not know how to but this is not so. You can write Delphi code in notepad if you want to (although I can't see why). Every component, property and setting of every component can be controlled and set in code. That still leaves 'writing code for free'. If the turbos can't compile it then this is a limitation but if you don't want Delphi and want to write in notepad then FreePascal or Lazarus may be able to help you in this.

My overall experience is Delphi is a wonderful tool that can be used to write some amazing software. This is a really poor review.

Hehehe, funny.See this:http://blog.marcocantu.com/...

2008-06-25T15:34:00.000-07:00

Hehehe, funny.

See this:

http://blog.marcocantu.com/blog/user_finds_delphi_annoyances.html